New to Site: Question regarding 4 out 1 in?

Discussion in 'About Offense' started by Coach DDay, May 28, 2014.

  1. Coach DDay New Member

    I'm sure it may have been discussed in this forum before, and as I am new to this site I probably have missed this, however...Does anyone use the 5 Spots (5 Out) for 4 Out 1 in?

    What do you think are the advantages of this? Disadvantages?
  2. plavitch Active Member

    We play our four perimeters on the five-out spots for two reasons. First, we play against zone (mostly 2-3) at least half the time. I like the gapping action we get on those spots. Of course, after a hook & look we are basically in a 3-out, 2-in formation anyway.

    Second, against man-to-man the gaps between the five-out spots are bigger than the gaps between the six-out spots (obviously). I think this gives us more room to drive and makes the defense have to move farther to help. That's something I picked up from Vance Walberg.

    The post always has the option to step out and fill the open perimeter spot without the perimeters having to make a change.

    We have played this way for six or seven years and I really don't see any disadvantages to it.
  3. Coach DDay New Member

    I am going to be implementing Read & React Offense next year...and I just felt that the 5 spots gave more room and more flexibilty with cutters and screeners, not sure if that is true or not but that's just the feeling I get. I appreciate your reply and any help with my many questions will help!
  4. CoachDAP Member

    As long as you don't mind having players in the corners....

    I don't mind it. Some coaches like to keep players out of the corner.
  5. Coach DDay New Member

    My staff and I had meetings yesterday about how we wanted to implement the offense. A question that came up:

    If we a have a 4 out situation where there is a player in the mid post, and the perimeter players are playing the five spots, and when strong side wing passes to the strong side corner the passer should cut. What path does the passer take with the post working for the ball.

    Our answer was it depends on the wing defender

    1. If the wing defender stands...make a front cut through the short corner area
    2. If the wing defender jumps to the pass...make a shallow cut through the high post area.

    We thought our paths should be similar to a Laker cut.

    Thoughts on this?
  6. CoachDAP Member

    The path of a Laker Cut should be through the short corner or the high post area. I don't think it matters which way the player goes. If they go low, that could look like a ball screen to the offense. It might even be a ball screen out of the corner in some occasions. If the cutter goes high, there is a nice driving lane to the middle of the floor.
  7. Hoop Active Member

    The cut after the pass to the corner should be a "straight" basket cut, front or back. I would have your post back screen for the cutter BEFORE (s)he starts working the inside for the feed.

    That's my take, anyway.
  8. Coach DDay New Member

    I understand the rules of the offense (at least the first 6 layers):

    I guess my problem is that if the post as been working for position and the wing player is thinking two passes ahead and realizes that the corner has a better opportunity to make a pass to the post, and then by cutting the wing player takes themselves and a defender into the post taking away any opportunity for the post to score on a good post seal.

    I guess I may have answered my own question...If the player is smart enough to think two passes ahead and knows that the post entry pass should be made from the corner player...they should shallow cut through the high post in order to stay clear of a scoring opportunity for the post. CORRECT?

    HOOP: I do like the back screen could turn into a backscreen / ballscreen opportunity from the corner. The post defender may not be able to hard hedge on the ball screen from being occupied by the initial backscreen.
  9. Hoop Active Member

    I think what you are saying is right...I just feels "one dimensional".

    Try this:

    Wing has ball, mid-post is strong.
    Wing is looking to feed, but cannot.
    Wing passes to Corner and post steps out to back screen wing.
    Defense has to make a they switch to defend the wing basket cutting or not?

    If they do switch, your post has the inside position and your corner post feeds.
    If they don't switch, your wing may be open for a simple lay up (also a post feed...all cutters are post players).

    Also, with the post back screen, your post can re-post or pop to perimeter and then repost (4-5-4 out).

    I just think you get more actions from the back screen (or threat of a back screen) and are less more dimensional.
  10. Coach DDay New Member


    So what you are saying is back screen the cut everytime? I am not disagreeing just wondering?
  11. Hoop Active Member

    Personally, I like the back screen but you have a lot of freedom with the true post player (few RnR rules). The best way, in my opinion, is to tell your post to randomly back screen approx. 60-70% perimeter passes. Then the action is unpredictable (but does require good communication).

    You could tell your player to always fight for position and ONLY back screen on the wing to corner passes.

    You could also code/call this from the sideline. 4 Purple: Strong Post fights and cutters stay out of way. 4 Black: Strong Post sets back screens for cutters and then goes to work.

    Tons of options which is why we can have these great discussions and RnR is so hard to scout.
  12. Coach DDay New Member

    I will have a true post player that can play inside and out. I like the randomness of the back screen, 60-70% of the time , and using calls to determine actions if needed. Just want to be consistent in what I'm teaching. I am normally not very flexible, but feel that I will have to become much more flexible with this style of play. However I am excited about running this offense and getting the opportunity to coach it.
  13. plavitch Active Member

    We really only look for the wing-to-corner pass if the post defender is on the high side (better angle from corner) or the corner player is a good shooter who is open for a shot. If the post is fighting for position we want our cutter making the "Laker cut high."

    I wouldn't say back screen a certain % of the time, but rather tell the post if you don't have a seal when that wing-corner pass is made, then back screen. I would hate to give up good post position to go screen, especially if you have a good post.
  14. Hoop Active Member

    Agreed. The purpose of the "percentage" (which few players can calculate, in their head, during competition) is simply to remind them that they have the back screen as an option and that you, the coach, expect them to use it.

    Use a different technique/word to convey the message, "Don't just grow roots in the paint, jamming cutters, and expect to be fed like a baby bird. Get out and hunt...create opportunities for yourself and your teammates."
  15. CoachDAP Member

    Yes, R&R is hard to scout only if there is variety in the movement. If players do the same thing every time, it doesn't matter what you call it, it's going to be easy to predict. Players who are able to dictate what their defender does and act accordingly are going to be the ones who are hardest to defend.
  16. NigelCarpay Member

    My assumption is that if the post has worked for good post position as you've said then the pass is not going to the corner it's going into the post. This is why Hoop's take on this is "correct" in my opinion. If the post has worked and you can't feed it from the 45 then the corner is a dangerous place to put the ball.

    By backscreening you are creating multiple opportunities.
    The post can step out of the post on the backscreen.
    The post can ballscreen after the backscreen.
    The cutter can post after the cut.

    If you start banana cutting and standing in the post you lose flexibility and become predictable.

    My preference in the particular situaiton you are describing woudl be backscreen, then ballscreen and roll, then a repost and feed. The cutter should backscreen their way out so as the ballscreen and roll happens the weakside is being attacked off a backscreen at the same time, again creating multiple opportunities.
  17. plavitch Active Member

    I'm picturing this differently. I think if the post defender is topside then feeding from the corner is easier than from 45. It's the same idea as dribbling down to get a better angle for a feed.
  18. Coach DDay New Member

    plavitch: I would have to agree with you, on throwing the ball to the corner creates a better passing angle to the post. JMO

    New Question:
    Scenario: Open Post (5 out), Ball is on the wing and we make a pass to the corner (same side). The wing cuts to the basket and is getting jammed by the defender. What do you do?

    I have a thought...just want to see others ideas first.
  19. Hoop Active Member

    How often do you see posts in the mid-position being guarded on the high side?

    New Question:
    Scenario: Open Post (5 out), Ball is on the wing and we make a pass to the corner (same side). The wing cuts to the basket and is getting jammed by the defender. What do you do?

    If you can't get through...not front, not cannot swim through it...then you screen away and send another cutter through. There is always a cutter after a pass.
  20. plavitch Active Member

    I'd say we see that about half the time. The other half is dead behind. There is an occasional front.

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